Midweek Mention... Hands of Stone

Hands of Stone

Dan: this is take two for Duran. Duran the

Cris: man, de Piera, hands of stone.

Dan: That's right. You chose this one,

Cris: I did,

yes indeed. Because I've seen it before and I knew the cast. I liked it the first time.

And I just thought it's a, it's an interesting story. It's a biopic about the life of Roberto Duran

Reegs: and is it one of those biopics guys? 'cause we were talking about this earlier that there's kind of two approaches, isn't there? You sort of either zero specifically into like a moment in time in a person's sporting career, or you have one that spans the entirety of their, sort of tries to, this is the latter.

It's the latter. Is it? That's my least preferred type.

Dan: Yeah. This is,

Cris: oh, is it? Oh, I wouldn't have known that.

Dan: Well this one, it kind of focuses in a few moments, but it does span the life. And what, what it, we should make it clear he doesn't have stone in his hands, does

Cris: no, they, they're

Dan: this

Reegs: what?

Stones?

Dan: stone.

It's just bones and flesh like any other man. But

Cris: I think the [00:01:00] implication is he's got heavy hands.

Underneath, yes, Underneath the,

Dan: you know, gloves.

Reegs: it's a meta or.

Dan: well, it opens up with De Niro, who's a trainer called Ray Ancel

Acel Acel.

Reegs: Ray Arsal

Cris: Ray Aal.

Dan: Ray asshole. Asshole. But he is not an asshole. He is a nice guy.

Cris: He's actually a nice

Dan: and he's watching at Madison Square Garden, a young Duran fighting for the first time there. He is been persuaded to come along by the richest guy in Panama who, is in Duran's Corner,

Cris: He, he's his manager

Dan: and Duran is, he's dancing, he's flowing, he's got all, you know, it slows down.

It's got that, that moment where you're not actually watching the top half of the body. You're watching the feet, you're watching de Niro look on Duran as somebody who could be really special. And when he goes back into the changing rooms after the, the game, you. After the game, after the fight,

Reegs: it amateur fighting?

'cause he had no, as he's fighting proper. I

Dan: think this is [00:02:00] an early pro fight because he starts at, you know, really young.

I mean, his first prof fight was around 16, 17, you know, and he's. Hates the Yanks because of this history that he's had. With being from Panama with the Panama Can Canal, his mother was involved with an American GI who, who ran off and left him. We've, the

Reegs: well, the CIA were doing all sorts

Dan: yeah, there was, there's, there's loads going on.

Of course, it's a strategically important area and that the. The canal as well meant that a lot of trade and things could go through without going all the way fucking around South America. So it was a really, IM important area. And, and the Americans had showed a showed force and showed power in that area, and he's growing up around there as a young boy, isn't he?

Cris: And that's when, at the beginning, the monologue from RAs Ael the Robert Daniels character, [00:03:00] he says about the, the fighter that this fighters that, can go through their whole career and you can see that they don't have it. They don't have the, there's a way of he, what he calls it, I can't remember, but it's like the, the state of flow and the great ones.

You can tell the great ones by this, and that's when he goes back in backstage into the changing rooms and speaks the manager. And he is like, Ray, do you want. Train him. He and Roberto Duran is like, oh, why'd you bring this American, me being trained by an American no chance, while he has 32 different assortments of ice cream. Because then he's like, are you gonna eat all of them? He's like, I paid for them. Of course I'm gonna eat all of them because, and

Reegs: Well, he comes from nowhere,

Cris: is a thing that will go throughout the, the film that he's always

Dan: Yeah. And he is, he's he's hungry that, that shows that. But he's also an amateur. And Ray is, he knows what it takes to have a world champ.

He's at 18 world champs

Cris: Yes. And, and then we cut back to him being a [00:04:00] child and, and his,

Dan: and this part is really good actually. I like the, the part with him being a kid, you, you see the. The struggle he has to help feed his family. At one point he's at a protest looking on at some youth and students, kind of university students hoisting the Panamanian flag near the Americans.

And one of them gets shot. It starts a riot. It starts a, a massive kicking off of I think Americans getting killed. And people from Panama and, and around the, this kind of community getting shot as well. And really kicking off tensions high. He's nicking mangoes and swimming canals over while getting.

Kind of frightened and shot by

Reegs: risking his life for fruit,

Dan: his life for fruit so he can feed his brothers and sisters who are all hidden under a bed when he gets there. You know, it's that kind of state. But he's. He's got zero fucks from a young age.

Cris: [00:05:00] Yeah, it shows out. He's raised by like the Pi Piper of the neighborhood. Just a, a young mad

Dan: mad

Reegs: Where's

his parents and all this?

Well,

Dan: his

Cris: well, it's just his mom, but his mom looks after another three kids.

Reegs: Mm-hmm.

Dan: God knows. Doing what, you know. And there is no father figure. He, other than this kind of crazy. Guy who's he, he seems to look after the kids well and just laughs and jokes with him.

They get newspapers and try and sell them. And it is in selling his newspaper. He is bought into the boxing world 'cause he has to go into a boxing training club and a boxing ring to sell a newspaper. He asked one of the guys to train him, he goes, get the school kid. And he goes, well, you gonna pay for school.

Cris: And the coach kind of got, is taken aback. And then we see his coach name is pmo. Yeah. And we see him watching the young Roberto drum fighting in the docks

Dan: Yeah. He's like in a, an illegal fight where he's fighting [00:06:00] against another kid, maybe a year or so older than him

Reegs: they're like what, 10, 11

Dan: yeah.

10, 11 years old. And they're under the docks, there's a ring of men around them. They're all betting money.

Reegs: grim.

Dan: and he's. Able to take two, you know, two or three punches and give four or five. And he gets this guy on the, the floor and he, he, he starts then, doesn't he get up? You're

Cris: Yeah. Yeah. He,

Dan: like straight away.

He's got all the attitude about him. And he gets a few quid. I mean, he's a real, he's a nasty little kid. Like, you know, he's not humble in victory or anything. He's like, get up your cow. Come on, I'll fight you again. And as he gets the cash, the, the cops have. Rumbled him and they want the money from him.

They don't want anything else. He punches one cop in the cock and 'cause he is only about that high.

Cris: Well, he is, he's not that big. So

Reegs: No,

Dan: he's only about as high as waist, you know. So he punches it and then he can't get past the second. And he's put into what effectively be a children's prison.

And the trainer [00:07:00] comes out and, and says to him, you know, he obviously gives him bail, but he's got zero fuck still,

Cris: Yeah. He's like, are you okay? He's like, yeah, I'm all right. He's like, you call this, all right. It's like a massive room full of about 30 kids. They all sleep in the same place. All all like, brutal, disgusting. And then the, the trainer goes like, okay, I'll train you. And then it's like a montage of him fighting training.

He's telling him where to

Dan: Eating ice

Cris: do, eating ice creams, winning again. Winning again, fighting again.

Reegs: Ice cream's a big recurring thing

Cris: It is, yeah. He loves ice cream. Yeah. Because he says to him, if. Are you gonna fight for me if you, after his first fight, he's eating ice cream. If you keep buying me these, I'll fight for you.

No problem. And I'll listen to you.

I'll

Dan: knock all these bastards out

Reegs: So he keeps buying him ice cream

Dan: And you jump a few years and he meets yeah. Well, he sees her across the road. She's, she's just walking, minding her own business and it's like love at first sight kind of thing. He's just

For I think anybody watching this, to be honest. 'cause she's a beautiful young lady.

She plays a [00:08:00] effectively a university student or a school girl or high school maybe girl. In, in this,

Cris: uniform. Yes.

Dan: And. He won't let it go. He won't let her kind of leave without. Him letting her know who he is. At one stage, the guy who's trying to promote him turns up in a Rolls Royce and, and things, and he gets in the car, but he's just looking at her and all her friends

Reegs: She needs to see.

Dan: Yeah. All her friends are looking as he's looking at her and. You can see there's, there's some chemistry there, but they're on different sides of the track. She's been to school, she's probably from kind of, middle to upper class family. They've got a tv, you know, the, he's got fuck all, you know, never been to school, can't read all the rest of it.

Cris: Yeah. There's, there's a nice little thing that's just like, oh, where did you go to school? And he tells the manager's name like Oscars, I dunno, whatever. And then the school of this. And she's like, but I've transferred now. He's like, what [00:09:00] school? The School of Rayel. He's like, oh, American School. And he's like, yeah.

And she's like, you didn't go to school, did you? He's like, nah,

Dan: that's his school. The School of Life. You know, the, the school of of hard knocks. But they have this romance. She is absolutely beautiful. What's her name?

Cris: Anna.

Dan: And, you know, sh he woo her. And she's probably into the bad boys side of things a little bit herself.

And she watches him become a hero in Panama as he becomes a world champion in,

Cris: and this is another kind of montage where she, they. Get together. They, I don't think there's a wedding scene, but he keeps fighting. He keeps beating people up and she keeps having babies. Yeah. And he keeps, what are you gonna name him?

Roberto Duran, the second one. Are you gonna name him? Roberto Duran. Oh, it's a girl. Oh, okay. I dunno. Then, so, so, and throughout this whole montage, and then it goes [00:10:00] to leading up to the, to the high point of this, where

Dan: well, he is fighting Sugar Ray Leonard.

Reegs: Mm-hmm. The first

Dan: but he's had about, he's about 12 kids and they're all called Roberto Duran.

They're all named after him. They,

Cris: They,

and, and this is where he, he kind of, they see a, his wife has a magazine of the Fighter of the Year. I think it's on Rolling Stones magazine or something like that. And he's like, what does it say? She's like, no, you read it. She's like, oh, come on. What, what is it saying? And she's like, they call him Fighter of the Year.

And she's like, this is the man. You should fight that. There's, there's no one else.

him. Yeah.

Reegs: All right.

Dan: She's, she's quite well educated. She's pretty smart.

Cris: Yeah. Throughout the whole movie, there's also the political reference with the Panama Canal and all that. They celebrate the victory. When the first treaty signed that in 1990, the Americans will give back the canal to the Panamanians.

But this is in the seventies. And they all celebrate, like he celebrates, he gives people money and all that. Yeah. He celebrates like they've [00:11:00] won and she, he's trying to have sex with her. She's not like, you don't understand. This is, we're gonna get it back in 20 years, but in 20 years it's gonna be someone else.

She's, she's, you know, she's different education, different kind of vision. She tells him off in the end, they still have sex, which is quite horny. After explaining to him what's gonna happen and she keeps telling him that, oh, you're gonna knock him in 12 rounds. Have you got 12 rounds with me? Kind of thing.

Reegs: So it's quite

Dan: Yeah. There's a few hot scenes. But she is definitely yeah, a little more politically astute than he is. He's you know. Will believe the television basically. And she's not quite, you know, at that level. She will ask a few more questions and, and and he's always had this anti-American side to him.

And it gives him that hunger, doesn't it? Yeah. All the way through. So him having the possibility to fight. Sugar Ray, who's American, you know, he's top [00:12:00] of

Reegs: brash, confident, he's confident king of the world.

He's

Dan: king of the world. He is the world champ, you know, he doesn't need it. But the insults start flying in and he gets really personal and he starts talking about his wife and everything.

Calls him a homosexual. And Ryan sell the. The trainer played by De Niro, he really doesn't like that side of him. And he goes, look, I'm, I'm out If you're gonna do this shit, you know, this isn't, this isn't the way that I operate. We, we will, we will get there if we need to in different ways.

Eventually the fight goes on and. It's I dunno, it's not a, I dunno, there's been better boxing scenes and

Reegs: I was gonna ask about how the, the fighting

Dan: yeah. It

Cris: it's a bit rocky, like the, the,

Reegs: No

Cris: filming it's, it's a bit rocky, like where it's a bit up close and it's, look, you can see they've all trained and, and Usher looks

an incredible.

nick because he plays Usher plays sugar Ray.[00:13:00]

But, none of them is a boxer. I think we had the, as much as I don't like Will Smith, the, we had the standard set quite high by Will Smith in Ali.

Reegs: Well, but I think the benchmark was absolutely smashed by the Creed movies.

Cris: Okay. Right. And And

Reegs: creed are unbelievable. The

Cris: Yeah, exactly. But, but also they used actual boxes.

against,

Reegs: the last few minutes, those, that, that looks like you're watching boxing, I

Cris: I know, but, but they used actual boxes against Michael B. Jordan, whereas in this film it's just actors. Yeah. So they'll, they'll have to be a bit of a, it's, it's filmed.

a

bit more rough and a bit more movement with a camera.

Reegs: You need that right to cover up for the fact that they're not going for authenticity. Exactly. That they're

actors.

Cris: it is good, but it's not great. And despite the way, because that's the, the, the way he's this whole strategy from Roberto Duran. He knows sugar rays fly. He's coping Ali. He's just in and out. He's, he's not a

Reegs: or dope.

Cris: Yeah, he's not a broer, he is not [00:14:00] gonna stand and fight. Whereas Roberto, Ron's style is just going forward and basically standing in the middle of the ring and fight. Sugar Ray will never do that. So with the insults come, he takes it personally and it's all about the

strategy.

Reegs: wants to pressure for, he wants him to meet him halfway in the middle of the ring.

Cris: Exactly. And what the, the, what cell tells him is you pressure him. You keep him on the ropes and don't hug him. Keep him there.

Reegs: Tire him out.

Cris: goes. And that's. At the end, we get the decision and he wins by

Reegs: It split decision, you said a couple of rounds in it. Nothing more

Cris: yeah.

Dan: Yeah. There was,

Cris: there was one, one ref that gave a draw. One gave, I think was, let's say 136 to 134. And the other one that gave it a little bit more so, so it was very close, really, really,

close.

Dan: He was close, but he becomes champion of the world which is what he's been all about.

You know, he's beaten Sugar Ray Leonard, who is

Cris: Fighter of the year. Yeah. The year. Yeah.

Dan: the year, fight of the year. So obviously a fantastic fighter and, and put it in and

Cris: [00:15:00] and now he lets his hair down a

Dan: lets his hair down

Cris: money to the community. People coming to eat, hundreds of them at his house, just free food. And his wife, he comes through and he's like, oh, guys, take some more food.

Did you eat? Did you get

Reegs: that? Nobody has to be shot for fruit in his, in his house, do they?

Dan: No, that's

Cris: And and his wife goes like, how much money are you gonna give away? We spend already a hundred grand. He's like, oh, it's okay. It's only money. Which, it's all right. You see these people? Let them be happy. They had nothing.

I was once one of them, it's fine. And then slowly we get shown. Don King comes into play and sugar Ray Leonard.

Yeah. Keeps revisiting the fight and everything that happened in his head and he realizes it was all a play. He got played, he got to fight angry and to meet him in the, in the middle of the ring, try to knock him out rather than fight his own fight.

Dan: So it sticks to the history of obviously the fights. He, he doesn't stop winning fights. He, he lost and losing fights. He won. We know the, the, the second [00:16:00] round or the second fight, sugar Ray gets his revenge.

Reegs: Well, it ended controversially it's fair to say,

Dan: Yeah, well that's right because there's this moment where he says no mass no more.

Reegs: You hear him say it in the movie?

Cris: No,

Dan: no. No.

Cris: He just goes, he just goes, no, he just goes like that. He just hand gestures and stops fighting.

Dan: The ref stops it and it, it pisses people off because obviously he's, it looks like he's giving up, he can't do anymore.

Cris: And to be fair, the way the, the way the fight is shot, he does look like he's getting just sugar.

Ray just does the dance. He does the hand gesture and then punches him with the other, with the other hand,

Dan: Oh, he is

Cris: basically show boating, controlling the fight, not necessarily punching him to, to knock him out, but it's almost like he can't really get him. Yeah, he's toying with him and he can't really get him, and he gets really, really frustrated.

And then he just, he does give up, basically, he quits. Although controversially, he apparently said he never said no mass. [00:17:00] But that's More between him and,

Dan: I mean, we, we, we talked a little bit earlier, didn't we, about off air, about Duran's record and how he, he then fought for another good few years after this.

He went up and down weight

Cris: thing is he, he gets suspended. And then he, he's a bit down. He becomes a bit of an alcoholic and he kind of depression and all that. And then he finds

Reegs: right in the wake of his defeat, he sort of falls apart. Does

Cris: Yes. Yeah. After, after the defeat it, his life kind of falls apart. His

Dan: he's not used to losing, you know, he, he actually had a record of a hundred and, I dunno

Reegs: I looked it up before he was 71 and one when he went into the first fight with so he was 72? Yeah, 72 and one.

Dan: and the one would've been like a, a freak. And, you know, he, he was a hard, hard man. I think he did well over a hundred fights.

He won most of them, like 103 of them out of 117. 17 Knockdowns. [00:18:00] A lot of the ones he lost was right at the end of his career. I mean, I heard today Ricky Hans coming back.

Reegs: Oh D Endy what? Terrible.

Six

Dan: years old. You know? Duran

Reegs: No, nobody wants to

Dan: Duran fought in until he was 50. I dunno if it's gonna be a Jake Paul kind of thing that he's gonna get back in and

fight

Cris: in anyway,

Reegs: don't want to see

Cris: we don't wanna see

Dan: that that's, that's a, that's a different story.

But Duran fought actual fighters up until he was 50 years old. And he was

Cris: the movie kind of goes in into that where, where he finds another reason to fight his misses, tells him kind of, I, I found something else to fight for. I'm gonna fight for, for my people, for Panama, and if I don't become world champion again, I still have to fight. That's pretty much how the movie goes.

And he starts fighting again, where Rayel, who is retired, gives him a last favor

Reegs: Rayel

Cris: And goes to the mob. And because the mafia still controls the boxing committee to a certain point, even by, by [00:19:00] then and says, we, I want him to get back in. And the guy's like, no chance that guy quit. You can't do that until, unless we tell you to quit.

And Rayel just goes back and like, look, do you not wanna see him beat up? Give him this guy at cruiser weight or at a higher weight and somewhere where the guy, even in the film, the guy looks big. The, the, the guy he fights in the comeback and Sugar Ray is a commentator for CBS.

Reegs: Oh, right.

Cris: And, and they, they have a moment in the changing room before the fight Roberto run apologizes to him and his

wife.

Reegs: So they do reconcile for the past a

Cris: that quite nicely.

Dan: Yeah. They, they make up and

Cris: and he does win the fight against against that guy. and then it kind of goes to towards the end really.

Dan: it. It paints Duran in. You know, a favorable light, I guess. I think his son was part of the

Cris: production. Yes. Yeah. yeah.

Dan: One

Cris: one of his sons.

Dan: I imagine he is called.

Cris: Robin.

Dan: Rob. That was

Cris: he's the only one

Dan: the one, Robin? Oh, I was [00:20:00] gonna say Roberto because that

Reegs: apparent, the only one who was able to step out is Father's Shadow. Well,

Cris: no, apparently the, the first one was called Roberto and then the other ones, but the second one his mom said, oh, you can't name all of them, Roberto.

And he said, okay, I'll call him Robin, like Robin Hood, because he was happy to give back after that. He was like, no one can tell me anything. Oh, he's gonna be Roberto's run.

Dan: Yeah.

Reegs: how confusing that would be in the house.

Roberto,

Cris: Robbie Robo.

Dan: Which, Roberto? Roberto three. Roberto four. That's what you just start getting numbered. Yeah. But yeah, I mean. This film, I really like sporting films. I hadn't seen this one before. It hadn't really been on my radar, and obviously with De Niro in it who's one of my favorite actors.

I was looking forward to ex and expecting a, a really decent movie. The sporting and boxing scenes I think could have been way better. I like this. The part about him growing up though you said you didn't. [00:21:00] Really favor those long biopics and preferred the, the ones where they focus on a certain era, a certain fight.

And you really got to know the character of a man or woman from those areas. But I think what was important in this area is that you. You found where he came from and that hatred that he had for America, that certainly ran through a lot of his boxing and the pride he had for, for being Panamanian certainly was evident in the first hour, the, the film and, and everything.

He does, like all boxes seem to go a little bit fucking haywire once they get a, a certain amount of. Success. But

Reegs: punches to the head,

Dan: punches to the head. I mean, he did have a lot. I say he fought from 16 to 50 years old.

Reegs: A probably sparred a few times as well, I would

Dan: probably took a few within sparring.

Cris: and those were the times where smart training, I don't think was necessarily, or over training [00:22:00] wasn't a thing, so he just went, just

Dan: so an incredible boxer, an incredible person. I'm glad they made a film on him because I didn't know a lot about him or his past or his history before this.

I dunno how much of it may have, you know, painted a Hollywood light on it during the fact. I think he may have been a. Bit of more of a scum than actually this film put in, because I think he did lay hands on his misses and

Cris: a little bit. Apparently. There was a few things that

Dan: that. So that's all really bad, nasty shit.

But as far as his boxing life went it's hard to look against that record and think 117 professional boxing matches. I mean, can you imagine just one,

Reegs: what would they call you? Hands of jelly.

Dan: Probably just jelly. Yeah, just 'cause I would, I would be wobbling in a corner somewhere. Yeah. What about you?

What would be [00:23:00] your boxing name? Chris

Cris: Tex.

Dan: There

Reegs: Oh, that's good power. That's

Dan: Well, you're just gonna explode in the corner.

Cris: Yeah. Implode more than anything else

Dan: What, what about yourself? Can you imagine yourself with a, a boxing name there, Riggs? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Just a yes

Cris: Simon. Yes. Riggs,

Dan: you giving up? Yes. So, go and see this at the cinema. If you was like 30 years ago, it's too far. 16, right? Okay. So 10 years

Reegs: Just go back in time

Dan: go back 10 years in time.

Cris: At 10 years in time. We will tell you what side he said, because obviously he's not here because he's got something of the face.

I'm not gonna

Dan: what Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Cris: He said the thoughts, his thoughts on the movie. Duran Duran one liked it. De Niro was good. Armas was hot. Bit of sports washing by not really getting into how much of a scrum around was,

Dan: Mm.

Reegs: Yeah.

Cris: Inside these words, I couldn't do an accent or, or a, or an impersonation,

Reegs: do you think side's got an accent?

Cris: [00:24:00] British Yes. Accent. I don't have one, so I couldn't really tell you. But that's how he portrayed it. I really liked it. It's also a bit of a parallel story into Roberto Duran, but also Ray I. Who was the first as Dan mentioned before, the first boxing coach to be introduced in the Boxing Hall of Fame.

And I think the neuro plays him really well. It's, it's, it's almost like a parallel life, but they're intertwined. And Ray Soul started training Robert Roberto, 72 and he.

Reegs: 72,

Cris: died at, I think 93 at the end of the film. They do show they, they do tell a few bits about Roberto Duran and also the fact that he'd had 16 kids and 13 of them were boys and they're all called Roberto Duran.

Which again, that was the reason why I thought this is an amazing story. Really. Yeah. and he is the, the symbol of Panama outside of the canal, that he's the most famous person to ever come out of Panama. So for me, a strong recommend.[00:25:00]

Dan: well, you know, hands of stone. Strong recommend.

Cris: Yeah.